Talk about OVERBID!!

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John Davion
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Post by John Davion » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:11 am

Exactly my point.
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saber 7
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Post by saber 7 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:56 am

Personally, I don't think I can fault either party. Technically, providing images of an out of print book is a legally grey area, so I can understand reluctance to do so. On the other hand, I know that I would love to read the thing (as I am sure many others would), but will never be able to justify spending $100 to do so. Heck, in my case, should the thing come back into print I would probably purchase it even if I already had acess to a scanned copy. I am certain others feel the same way. Nobody is trying to avoid paying for the book, we just feel that we should not OVERpay. That said, should he not want to share his copy, that is certainly his own perogative (though mentioning that he has it on an open forum is a little like being the only kid with icecream on a hot summer day).

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Post by John Davion » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:13 pm

saber 7 wrote:Personally, I don't think I can fault either party. Technically, providing images of an out of print book is a legally grey area, so I can understand reluctance to do so. On the other hand, I know that I would love to read the thing (as I am sure many others would), but will never be able to justify spending $100 to do so. Heck, in my case, should the thing come back into print I would probably purchase it even if I already had acess to a scanned copy. I am certain others feel the same way. Nobody is trying to avoid paying for the book, we just feel that we should not OVERpay. That said, should he not want to share his copy, that is certainly his own perogative (though mentioning that he has it on an open forum is a little like being the only kid with icecream on a hot summer day).
:thumleft:
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AVA MANGO TWO
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Post by AVA MANGO TWO » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:57 pm

First of all i didnt mean to come across as if was intending to rub peoples nose in it... as i stated i was very reluctent to mention the fact that i had a PDF copy of the Starleague book, thats why i left it until 2 pages into the topic to mention it, i also gave up playing kinder garden games many many years ago.
The main reasons i wont be posting a file up for general download is because first of all im not sure if its legal to do so, even if i were to except money or not i will still be provideing published information (copy written text and artwork) that is still licenced material thats does not belong to me.
Secondly i really dont think its very fair that others should have to purchase this book for $100+ in todays market or even if some who were smart enough to aquire the book when it was still availible to purchase in the stores for just $20, basically the Starleague book was never printed in large amounts thats why its so hard to get ahold of and rare these day.
I feel if you want this particular item bad enough your find away to aquire it, borrow, save, buy it, or hope and wait for a copy to show up on the market unnoticed just like the rest of the community have or had to do.
Sorry if i sound harsh but thats my feelings on this matter as i had to wait about 6 years to get a good copy of the original House Marik source book and almost double that for the copy of the Starleague book i own now.
The original Starleauge will never be reprinted simply as there has been to many changes to the Battletech time line recently especially with the introduction of the Total War rules with its techincal and historic alterations, also the last two new TRO's 3050 and the 3039 have altered the production line alot so the only useful material in the Starleague book now is the limited material on the original Periphery states, the history of the Cameron family and other key and important characters in the Battletech universe and the Starleague army and merc listings for the Succession wars which can easily be located in other cheaper source books and game aids.
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John Davion
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Post by John Davion » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:51 pm

What kind of history was changed Mango?
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AVA MANGO TWO
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Post by AVA MANGO TWO » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:12 pm

John Davion wrote:What kind of history was changed Mango?
Only stuff for the hard core gamer to concern themselves with at present such as manufacturing and production dates for some of weapons and equipment, but as i understand it the new intended Battletech start date will be from 3039 instead of 3025 so this will also change quite a few historical facts the way we know them at present and how they unfold will be known only in the releases of the written material in future source books.
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Post by John Davion » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:50 pm

Say what? 3039? Why? That topic should be thread of it's own.
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Dart Omega
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Post by Dart Omega » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:22 pm

sooner or later 3025 and 2750 will not be needed because of all the reworkings they seem to be doing...
hench when I said about TW making every thing else before it not worth it any more....
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AVA MANGO TWO
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Post by AVA MANGO TWO » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:57 pm

John Davion wrote:Say what? 3039? Why? That topic should be thread of it's own.
Dart Omega wrote:sooner or later 3025 and 2750 will not be needed because of all the reworkings they seem to be doing...
hench when I said about TW making every thing else before it not worth it any more....
Its a well needed face lift for a old game thats starting to sag in places, its also in desperate need of a little clean out to try and make the game flow easily and smoother, thats all nothing to start the old alarm bells ringing. :shock:
A fresh start is needed to get more new players involved its that simple or the game will simply fade and die, so id sooner bite my lip and encourage these new up and coming changes and live with them even if i dont them, or just sit back like a old crusty grouchy hardcore player and see Battletech go fizzle and go POOF before my eyes...
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Post by Typhoon » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:01 pm

Dart Omega wrote:sooner or later 3025 and 2750 will not be needed because of all the reworkings they seem to be doing...
hench when I said about TW making every thing else before it not worth it any more....
They may be reworked sooner or later but I do not think either book will not be needed. Some may prefer the originals just like some prefer the BMR:R. They may end up more as collectors items than game use items but having 3025 and 2750 for the missing items will be nice for some.

The SLDF source book will remain relevant regardless of TW because it is a source book not a rule book. The background information will always remain important.

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Post by Dart Omega » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:43 pm

are you Sure Ty?
it sure seems like they are just trashing every thing on the side before TW to make room for tw trash and the things to come.

mark my word they will sooner or later rewrite even the SLDF SB information.
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Post by John Davion » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:14 pm

Jeez, why doesn't whiz kids just rewrite the Bible while they're at it. If you are talking about game rules, or configs, then fine. But you are not talking about Battletech history are you? If you're not, then I apologize for my shock and all is well. If you are, then pardon me while I ballisticate (my George Bush word of the day) some more. :?
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Post by Typhoon » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:15 am

Dart Omega wrote:are you Sure Ty?
it sure seems like they are just trashing every thing on the side before TW to make room for tw trash and the things to come.

mark my word they will sooner or later rewrite even the SLDF SB information.

I am not sure what you mean by the above.

I have yet to see any "trashing" of the past. BT history has not really been re-written, clarified maybe, gaps filled in most likely, but "trashing" I haven't seen it. So, you may need to provide some examples before I fully grasp what you mean.


They may re-write the SL Source Book at some point and it may have some changes to reflect things that were explained better in later books and to make corrections but I think the base of the old book will remain the same. And I think it will always be relevant to some and a item high on many collectors' "Must get" list.

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Post by Dart Omega » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:31 am

Ty,
you have more faith in them then I ever will.

Edit: never mind I got Fanpro and Wizkids mixed up, Fanpro Doesn't know BT anymore, Gamelabs do and Wizkids is now owned by Topps(or is that out of date now?).
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Post by Typhoon » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:27 am

Dart Omega wrote:Ty,
you have more faith in them then I ever will.
It is not "faith" it is that I am not sure what you mean by "trashing every thing". I have yet to see evidence that there is any of that going on.

Is it that you do not like the idea of the "Jihad" and the "Dark Ages"? If that is the case then it is the in universe future that you are talking about and that was something in the works ages ago.

Is it that you do not like TW because it changed some of the rules? If so, then the rule changes were not that bad and were needed in some cases.

The back story seems to be unchanged as far as I am reading. LAMs have gone but are still mentioned. The old designs remain despite the old art being eliminated. The Star League rose and fell the same. The Clans invaded the same. Old mercenary units died but that is somewhat inevitable and as much as I sometimes miss some of those units I do not see why it couldn't give rise to them being reborn or some units rising from the remains. Hell, there are amazing opportunities in this.

Still despite that the past remains unchanged as far as I can see. So, you'll have to explain a bit more.

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Post by Dart Omega » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:46 am

The rules are one.
the other is Devlion stone and what he got the Clans and other powers to do which was completely OOC for them all to do.

it seems they are just trashing every thing that makes the great houses and the Clans different from every other RPG out there. BT is well known for its never ending wars, wither it is Pirates, Clans, or House against House.

I don't mind the WOB thing, it shook things up abit but to have one man change the entire Innersphere almost over night and some clans is hard to swallow and seems to trash what we know about many of the Clans in the Inner Sphere.....
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Post by Typhoon » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:09 am

Dart Omega wrote:The rules are one.
Yes, I know you have concerns about that but I do not think it is as bad as you think. However, I have no problem with you using the old rules at your own games.
Dart Omega wrote: the other is Devlion stone and what he got the Clans and other powers to do which was completely OOC for them all to do.
I don't know if it is at the point he rises to the heights of influence. Remember by the time he is around the Clan OZ has been there quite a while and the Clans in the OZ have been heavily influenced by their I.S. citizens. I am not sure they could ever remain as they were.

Certainly, it IS out of character for the Clans in 3050 and before but at this point I am not so sure it is. Besides, we do not know enough of Stone and his influence on them to really form a firm opinion.

Heck, we even saw at the time of their 3050 invasion and afterwards they were not as monolithic as some assume. Clan Wolf was willing to adapt to the Inner Sphere. Ghost Bear eventually did adapt. The Spirit Cats went the furthest and joined the New Star League. Others may have been slower but I wonder if they could really stay as they were given their locale. The "Home Clans" are a different story.
Dart Omega wrote: it seems they are just trashing every thing that makes the great houses and the Clans different from every other RPG out there. BT is well known for its never ending wars, wither it is Pirates, Clans, or House against House.
I don't see that changing in the Dark Ages. In fact, if anything the Inner Sphere and some of the I.S. Clans have fractured even more. Certainly, the main Houses have for the most part remained intact but their bickering and underhanded dealing hasn't stopped.
Dart Omega wrote: I don't mind the WOB thing, it shook things up abit but to have one man change the entire Innersphere almost over night and some clans is hard to swallow and seems to trash what we know about many of the Clans in the Inner Sphere.....
Like anything, things can not remain at a stand still. Change happens and needs to happen. I agree at this point it is astounding that one man seems to change the course of history of the entire Inner Sphere. Still, we have yet to see how exactly he does that.

However, in all this the past remains unchanged for the most part and books like SL Source Book and the old 2750 and 3025 TRO's will remain somewhat relevant to the game, especially for a goodly number of us.

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Post by AVA MANGO TWO » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:16 am

I think there is something like a good 50 or 60 years before MWDA time line kicks into the CBT one, thats a hell of a long time in Battletech terms so anything can happen and plans changed accordingly.
What i do know is the next TRO to be released should will be heavily influenced by rediscovered technology and ancient Starleague mech designs as i understand that more of the helms (GDMC) memory core is unlocked... 8) zac
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Post by Typhoon » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:21 am

Another thought comes to mind; maybe it isn't just Devlin Stone the man that sways the Clans maybe it is the IDEAL that the man espouses that sways the Clans. And with that it is the people who aid Devlin Stone and his ideal.

Maybe we are looking at it all wrong and it isn't the man that changes things but the ideal and the people who believe in that ideal that changes things. And somehow in all that the man and the ideal become intertwined so closely that they are almost inseparable when they really should be. It could also be the reason he left.

So, all this "how could one man do it?" is really not the work of one but the work of many behind the one! Something to think about. :D

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Post by AVA MANGO TWO » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:16 am

:shock: Damn Steve i think your beginning to look into this far to deeply, remember the newer Battletech game will be aimed at the younger generation of wargamer so i think it will be far less indepth than your possible example you have given above...
Ive no idea how they are going to carry out and resolve the Devlin Stone story line, but as i said thet have amply time to do so CL could release another half dozen TRO's and publish countless amounts of source books before they need to worry about introduceing and mergeing the MWDA time line to CBT.
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Post by Dart Omega » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:55 am

Like I am doing with the threads of ambition(sp) I am rewriting some of it so the St. Ives Compact wins the out come.. so I guess I can rewrite the story and Stoner dies in combat or die in the bathroom or something...

You know Ty, and Ava I feel must better, thank you 8)
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Post by John Davion » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:40 pm

Dart Omega wrote:Ty,
you have more faith in them then I ever will.

John,
Wizkids don't have the rights to BT any more. Gamelabs or what ever their called do these days.
I swear BT is changing hands faster then some Boarder worlds in the fiction in the last few years.
Gamelabs huh? Blakes-Breath! Why FASA? WHY? :P
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Post by CJ_Keys » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:00 pm

Dart Omega wrote:Ty,
you have more faith in them then I ever will.

John,
Wizkids don't have the rights to BT any more. Gamelabs or what ever their called do these days.
I swear BT is changing hands faster then some Boarder worlds in the fiction in the last few years.
Dart, I think you need to get all your ducks in a row.
Wizkids owns BattleTech. They market a version of it called Mechwarrior. They Liscence out the old version of Battletech to Catalyst Game Labs and before that it was liscenced to Fanpro. Since WK bought Batletech and they lic the property out to make CBT it has only changed hands one time between Fanpro and Catalyst.

As for the TRO 3039 and TRO 3050U. In my opinion both were needed. 3039 re-intoduces the Unseens in a way and 3050U combines the old 2750 TRO and the old 3050 TRO, updates them and brings in new art to boot which is much more attractive then the old art. Additionally certian things have been needing retcons and clarifications as even though FASA started it all they were horrible abotu fact checking and there are things that justy dont make sense in soem of the old TROs like 'Mechs predating the release of the Mackie or even a certian 'Mech being used by the SLDF and also being initially built after the fall of the Star League and the Exodus. Overall I think Catalyst and Fanpro before them have been doing an excellent job and I hope they keep up the good work.

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Dart Omega
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Post by Dart Omega » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:29 pm

sorry about the mix up John, thanks CJ for the heads up and I Fixed that mistake.

anyways back to the topic at hand.
to me all they are doing is trying to get the DA kiddies into BT so they are changing alot of things around to get them...

do you all remember the fluff about how they said no Mechs over the 100 ton mark?

and their doing that with dumb three leg mechas.. we are not a Anima here .. last I checked any way.

mechs should be bulky, thats why I like the look of the Thug, the Atlas(the old one and BT one), the Old Warhammer, Locust, Jenner, Rifleman, and so on.
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Post by John Davion » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:08 pm

No worries. I might be a BT fan since '88 but I am a newbie sometimes on the current stuff. As I said, I am a history/novel/Computer game guy now, I don't wargame anymore.
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